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Thread: Would you like to see the POTUS thread re-opened?

  1. #251
    Releaser of the Hounds WoodenSaucer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heimbachae View Post
    honesty, i think the nepotism laws will be rewritten shortly after he leaves office. i'm very confused as to who is doing what in the white house currently but one thing i do know: no one in his family was elected to that office. they can't just run things when it's convenient for him. i don't know any other president in history (and i'll be waiting to be proven wrong) that allowed their children to be in positions of power while they were in office.
    i feel like they are backing themselves into a corner at this point. or like they've dug a hole and are standing next to it waiting for someone to shove them into it.
    Well, it's a brother, and not a child, but on the other side of the aisle, Bobby Kennedy was JFK's Attorney General. He was pretty influential.

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    Moderator the ancient gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenSaucer View Post
    Well, it's a brother, and not a child, but on the other side of the aisle, Bobby Kennedy was JFK's Attorney General. He was pretty influential.
    Just to be clear, we're not actually comparing RFK to Jared Kushner now, right?
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    Senior Member drew79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post
    Just to be clear, we're not actually comparing RFK to Jared Kushner now, right?
    I was referring more to political family members who get jobs as lobbyists and such. The Trump administration is unique in that it has placed such close family members in such influential positions. On one hand it could be seen as sinister, but I think they are simply new at the game and don't know how to manage, I don't know the phrase, but "plausible deniability," as I think the Clinton's put it?

    The current president simply didn't figure that out; the business world and politics are very different. Unfortunately Trump's naïveté is catching up with him.

    On the other hand, I'd appreciate someone who doesn't know how to cover up up criminal activities rather than someone who knows exactly how to dispose of a body. So there are two ways to look at it, no question.

    I think Jared Kushner is creepy though.
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  4. #254
    Releaser of the Hounds WoodenSaucer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post
    Just to be clear, we're not actually comparing RFK to Jared Kushner now, right?
    He was talking about nepotism in the White House like it's never happened before.
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  5. #255
    Moderator the ancient gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drew79 View Post
    The Trump administration is unique in that it has placed such close family members in such influential positions. On one hand it could be seen as sinister, but I think they are simply new at the game and don't know how to manage, I don't know the phrase, but "plausible deniability," as I think the Clinton's put it?

    The current president simply didn't figure that out; the business world and politics are very different. Unfortunately Trump's naïveté is catching up with him.
    I don't see Trump surrounding himself with family members, even while in office as sinister, as a concept. It's simply weird (again, as a concept--it's turned out to be kind of sinister.) But, ignorance and incompetence aren't excuses...pretty much ever. That doesn't work with the law, it sure as hell doesn't work with the Presidency.

    And...do you really think Trump is a fool? The guy who knew how to get things done? The guy with all the "secret plans"?

    Okay...forget those last two things, that was a joke. But I've never thought Trump was an idiot. Do you? Did you before, or has your mind changed?

    Quote Originally Posted by drew79
    On the other hand, I'd appreciate someone who doesn't know how to cover up up criminal activities rather than someone who knows exactly how to dispose of a body. So there are two ways to look at it, no question.
    I'm not exactly sure what that means. Or why there should be "criminal activities" within a Presidency, like, at all. Wouldn't those activities, if present, be the main concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenSaucer View Post
    He was talking about nepotism in the White House like it's never happened before.
    Gotcha. It was framed sort of weirdly, but I get it. Fair enough.

  6. #256
    Senior Member drew79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post
    I don't see Trump surrounding himself with family members, even while in office as sinister, as a concept. It's simply weird (again, as a concept--it's turned out to be kind of sinister.) But, ignorance and incompetence aren't excuses...pretty much ever. That doesn't work with the law, it sure as hell doesn't work with the Presidency.

    And...do you really think Trump is a fool? The guy who knew how to get things done? The guy with all the "secret plans"?

    Okay...forget those last two things, that was a joke. But I've never thought Trump was an idiot. Do you? Did you before, or has your mind changed?



    I'm not exactly sure what that means. Or why there should be "criminal activities" within a Presidency, like, at all. Wouldn't those activities, if present, be the main concern?



    Gotcha. It was framed sort of weirdly, but I get it. Fair enough.
    I don't think Trump is a fool, but he's learning on the job, certainly and it's probably a much bigger task than he ever envisioned. Having a large personal fortune, a very public name and a global network of contacts is working against him at this point, whereas you might think they would be assets.

    I've read a couple of interviews with his ghost writer and it's pretty interesting to see how Trump's mind works. Basically he's insecure and overachieves to compensate. Every victory, no matter how small, is a huge win. That's a huge character flaw, brought about by his father, but at the same time that's a useful character flaw that America needs right now, pride and confidence, even if it's sometimes misplaced.

    Is Trump full of hot air now and then? Sure, no question. But I largely back his core values. And he's generally pretty damn upfront in public. Why not? He loves the attention. He thrives on success, deserved or not. It's exciting to live in a country where our president is bold and direct.

    The media is messing up by going after Trump, just as the Democrats are. They need to figure out WHY he was elected, not how to get rid of him, all that will do is piss off everyone who voted for him. That's not a good way to win the next election round. The Dems best bet would be to sit back, quietly retire Pelosi, Waters, Schumer, and Poca- uh, Elizabeth Warren. Those idiots can't shut up and are only hurting their cause. They need new blood with a new message. Trump is the end result of a process, not a phenomenon unto himself.

    I'd like to see more competition, personally. It's high time we revive the Bull Moose party!

    As for my last few lines, I'm not quite sure how to re-phrase it. The best way, I guess, would be to say I'd prefer a president who is inept or naive on questionable dealings than one who is an expert at covering them up. Allegedly HRC has wished quite a few people "into the cornfield" over the years, and we don't hear much about it, even the recent murder of Seth Rich. That's unsettling.

    In any case, apparently Bob Ritchie, Kid Rock might run as senator for Michigan. That's interesting. I predict that if he runs he will win, depending on his opponent.

    What are your Thoughts?
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  7. #257
    Sir Donkus of Puncherelus heimbachae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenSaucer View Post
    Well, it's a brother, and not a child, but on the other side of the aisle, Bobby Kennedy was JFK's Attorney General. He was pretty influential.
    was bobby in politics prior to being given that position? as far as i know trump is making his family members politicians who have zero political experience. some voted for that. drain the swamp and such. i just don't see that happening.


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    Senior Member drew79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heimbachae View Post
    was bobby in politics prior to being given that position? as far as i know trump is making his family members politicians who have zero political experience. some voted for that. drain the swamp and such. i just don't see that happening.


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    I'm not okay with anyone boosting their political "career" (I just threw up a little bit) based on family ties.

    No way. Earn your own way or shut the hell up. I don't give a damn who you are related to. That's one of my key issues with the Trump administration. Who said Ivanka is qualified for anything? Nobody elected her.

    As I see it, Trump is sincere about draining the swamp. But the swamp is full of alligators, and Trump, by surrounding himself with family is somewhat hypocritical, but I think the difference is so far as I can tell the Trump family has no desire to establish a dynasty or or enrich themselves.

    Trump needs a job done and assembled his most trusted advisers. He's delegating to people he trusts, and while I question the wisdom behind that, I do follow the logic. So far as I know, Ivanka, Jared Kushner, Don Jr.. none of those folks have any political aspirations.

    I could be wrong on that one, but that's my perception.
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  9. #259
    Releaser of the Hounds WoodenSaucer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heimbachae View Post
    was bobby in politics prior to being given that position? as far as i know trump is making his family members politicians who have zero political experience. some voted for that. drain the swamp and such. i just don't see that happening.


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    It was pretty evident and well known that Ivanka and Donald Jr. were going to be influential before we ever voted. Everyone who voted for Trump had the capacity to know that before they made their decision to vote for him. If Hillary would have won, Bill and Chelsea would have been influential, too.

    I'm not justifying stupid stuff; I'm just pointing out that the dynamics were known, and it wouldn't have been unique to the Trump family.
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  10. #260
    Moderator the ancient gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenSaucer View Post
    It was pretty evident and well known that Ivanka and Donald Jr. were going to be influential before we ever voted. Everyone who voted for Trump had the capacity to know that before they made their decision to vote for him. If Hillary would have won, Bill and Chelsea would have been influential, too.

    I'm not justifying stupid stuff; I'm just pointing out that the dynamics were known, and it wouldn't have been unique to the Trump family.
    Yeah, I think everyone knew that Jared and Ivanka were part of the deal from the start.
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  11. #261
    Vetus-schola venatus Mr_Nick666's Avatar
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    How about the Trump Dictatorship trying to quash freedom of speech now? (or at least anything he doesn't want to hear or be seen that he can't just call fake news!)

    https://www.wired.com/2017/06/trumps...rst-amendment/
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  12. #262
    Senior Member drew79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenSaucer View Post
    It was pretty evident and well known that Ivanka and Donald Jr. were going to be influential before we ever voted. Everyone who voted for Trump had the capacity to know that before they made their decision to vote for him. If Hillary would have won, Bill and Chelsea would have been influential, too.

    I'm not justifying stupid stuff; I'm just pointing out that the dynamics were known, and it wouldn't have been unique to the Trump family.
    That's very good point. Something I try to avoid doing here is saying "well, those guys are doing it, so it's okay if we do it!" sort of thinking. IMO that's childish and doesn't lead anywhere. What's wrong is wrong, I don't care who does it.

    It's pretty clear I think, that at some point Chelsea Clinton will run for something and I think she'll see a lot of support from people who thought Hillary deserved to win. Part of that, I think is the weird need to see a female president. I really don't care about the presidents race, or gender or religion, none of that matters. I care about policy. It would be a symbolic victory I suppose.

    But if Chelsea wins the presidency, it's a fact that Bill and Hillary would be close advisers. That makes sense in a lot of ways; they have a lot of experience, why not utilize it? It would be dumb NOT to. I'm sure George Bush the sequel did so, and I don't see anything wrong with that. If it helps the president do a better job then I'm all for it, because it benefits the citizens.

    Trump is a bit more complicated because it's the Clinton scenario I just outlined in reverse. Ivanka seems competent, Trump trusts her, he's politically inexperienced, so he's leaning on family for help. That makes sense, especially given all the animosity towards the Trump presidency. He doesn't know who to trust. So he's circling the wagons. I would say Trump Jr. probably means we'll but isn't up to the task.

    In other news, apparently the border wall construction is going to start soon in Texas, in the Santa Ana Wildlife reserve. Oh boy. I don't think I would have picked a wildlife reserve as a building site... couldn't they move it a bit? I wonder how many protesters and acts of violence we'll see against the guys building the wall?
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  13. #263
    Vetus-schola venatus Mr_Nick666's Avatar
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    Mentioning the wall (that'll never get built!). Isn't the majority of it on privately owned land!? Let alone starting building on a Wildlife Reserve..!?

    At least Trump is entertaining to watch fumble about (not so good if he's your President but veering between funny and scary when he's not!).
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    Sir Donkus of Puncherelus heimbachae's Avatar
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    i hear it's more fence than wall


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    Moderator the ancient gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Nick666 View Post
    Mentioning the wall (that'll never get built!). Isn't the majority of it on privately owned land!? Let alone starting building on a Wildlife Reserve..!?
    Most of it would be on privately owned land. The government would have to seize it. Republicans usually hate when the government seizes land, but I guess when it comes to keeping those "bad hombres" out, they make an exception.

    I saw a classic interview a while back with this old woman in Texas whose life is basically going to be torn apart if the wall goes forward as her home will be seized, and she'll have to take the government to court to get anything near what it's actually worth paid to her in return. She also didn't think illegal immigration was a big problem (didn't see any of these "bad hombres" sneaking across her property). The best part? She was a Trump voter.

    Quote Originally Posted by drew79 View Post
    In other news, apparently the border wall construction is going to start soon in Texas, in the Santa Ana Wildlife reserve. Oh boy. I don't think I would have picked a wildlife reserve as a building site... couldn't they move it a bit? I wonder how many protesters and acts of violence we'll see against the guys building the wall?
    Even though Trump signed that order, didn't the wall building have to be folded into the budget? I'm not completely sure, but if that's where it got pushed to, it'll be a while before construction starts. And, to me, the wildlife preserve isn't a huge issue, it's when they start taking people's homes that things will get interesting.

    Just as a side note, you do know we don't really need a big border wall, right?

  16. #266
    Releaser of the Hounds WoodenSaucer's Avatar
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    I know people from Texas who talked about non-Mexican terrorist cells sneaking into the country through the loose southern border. It's something a lot of people around there are very fearful of, and according to them, it happens. I think after 911, that was probably the original motive for wanting to shore up the borders more than "bad hombres" from Mexico. Yeah, it's going to cause problems for some of the people who own land there. But it's silly to think it's stupid to want to protect our borders better than we are.
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    Frankly I don't things are gonna end well for Donnie at this point. Its clear he likely will never be able to accomplish anything major as long as the shadow of Russia hangs over him. Everytime he thinks he has managed to change the subject or move forward from the Russia probe some other piece of damaging info comes up that drags the whole thing right back into the spotlight. Those recent emails with Trump Jr make Hilary's emails look like small potatoes. Its kinda funny really how the Trumpers claim that the media won't stop obsessing over Russia when a lot of it is Donalds doing because he is basically feeding them.
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  18. #268
    Senior Member golgo13's Avatar
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    I like the metaphorical concept of the wall, but I'd rather repeal the 14th amendment, triple deportation efforts, and bring aggressive criminal charges to any employer that utilizes illegal immigrants for labor. I'd also like to have English established as the official language for our country. Learn it or struggle. Come here legally, work hard, enjoy this awesome country and become Americans. Of course I'm not optimistic that any of this will truly happen. Democrats need voters.

    Chelsea looks just as evil as Hillary. Doesn't mean she is, just look likes Hillary and speaks like her. Bill was a solid president and probably what the country needed at that time. Very smart and an incredibly savvy diplomat. I think he rode the coattails of the dot.com economic explosion and gets way too much credit for any economic boost during his era, just like I think GW gets too much blame when the markets corrected themselves.

    I do wonder why democrats give Bill a free pass for using his position to sexually harass (abuse) women that worked for him through out his political career yet they want to call Trump a misogynist. Folks (both sides) need to stop being hypocrites and be truer to their own beliefs, but of course it remains politics as usual.
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    troublémaker ohmyrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    I like the metaphorical concept of the wall, but I'd rather repeal the 14th amendment, triple deportation efforts, and bring aggressive criminal charges to any employer that utilizes illegal immigrants for labor. I'd also like to have English established as the official language for our country. Learn it or struggle. Come here legally, work hard, enjoy this awesome country and become Americans. Of course I'm not optimistic that any of this will truly happen. Democrats need voters.

    Chelsea looks just as evil as Hillary. Doesn't mean she is, just look likes Hillary and speaks like her. Bill was a solid president and probably what the country needed at that time. Very smart and an incredibly savvy diplomat. I think he rode the coattails of the dot.com economic explosion and gets way too much credit for any economic boost during his era, just like I think GW gets too much blame when the markets corrected themselves.

    I do wonder why democrats give Bill a free pass for using his position to sexually harass (abuse) women that worked for him through out his political career yet they want to call Trump a misogynist. Folks (both sides) need to stop being hypocrites and be truer to their own beliefs, but of course it remains politics as usual.
    this is a pretty solid post

  20. #270
    Senior Member DeliciousMalk's Avatar
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    Capitalism in this country leans hard on super low-wage immigrants haha. If we tripled deportation efforts the cost of everything will go up pretty high haha

    I like the fact that we have no official language - our heritage as a country is "the melting pot", so I think it's super appropriate that we don't force our culture and language on people. We're a huge mix of cultures and that's something to be celebrated, imo.

    In any case, I served a church mission in Mexico for 2 years and everybody that was making it into the US wasn't just swimming across the river and walking - they paid what they called "coyotes" to get them in and such. There's like a 20 foot high barbed wire fence across the entire border that they mostly don't try to get over, they just take advantage of a very corrupt border patrol. Everyone I knew that had made it into the US had just been driven in in the back of a truck.
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  21. #271
    Senior Member golgo13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliciousMalk View Post
    Capitalism in this country leans hard on super low-wage immigrants haha. If we tripled deportation efforts the cost of everything will go up pretty high haha
    Inflation is a real thing and you are correct. But we made our bed allowing it to happen, it will balance itself out though I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliciousMalk View Post
    I like the fact that we have no official language - our heritage as a country is "the melting pot", so I think it's super appropriate that we don't force our culture and language on people. We're a huge mix of cultures and that's something to be celebrated, imo.
    But we are no longer a melting pot. We are a thousand different subcultures who want to exist without any assimilation.


    Quote Originally Posted by DeliciousMalk View Post
    I In any case, I served a church mission in Mexico for 2 years and everybody that was making it into the US wasn't just swimming across the river and walking - they paid what they called "coyotes" to get them in and such. There's like a 20 foot high barbed wire fence across the entire border that they mostly don't try to get over, they just take advantage of a very corrupt border patrol. Everyone I knew that had made it into the US had just been driven in in the back of a truck.
    Send them back. Come here legally or fix your own country and stay there. They don't want to be Americans.
    Last edited by golgo13; 3 Days Ago at 11:29 AM.

  22. #272
    Moderator the ancient gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenSaucer View Post
    I know people from Texas who talked about non-Mexican terrorist cells sneaking into the country through the loose southern border. It's something a lot of people around there are very fearful of, and according to them, it happens. I think after 911, that was probably the original motive for wanting to shore up the borders more than "bad hombres" from Mexico. Yeah, it's going to cause problems for some of the people who own land there. But it's silly to think it's stupid to want to protect our borders better than we are.
    Yeah, it was after 9/11 that we made that bigger move to shore up the borders, both North and South. Which is why you need a passport to go to Canada now (or at least you did, not sure if that's changed). From all that, we've intercepted, and thwarted, at least two major terror threats--from the North. Haven't heard of any from the South, but I could be wrong about that.

    As far as it being "stupid"? Yeah, it is kind of stupid. It's impossible to come up with a system, however it's constructed, to keep all the terrorists out. We just have to do the best we can, and we've been successful so far. As far as illegal immigration goes, that's not really a problem right now. The numbers are way, way down. Also, a big stretch of the border is a river. Pretty hard to build a wall there. Not to mention that building big walls has, historically, never worked as well as intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    I like the metaphorical concept of the wall, but I'd rather repeal the 14th amendment, triple deportation efforts, and bring aggressive criminal charges to any employer that utilizes illegal immigrants for labor. I'd also like to have English established as the official language for our country. Learn it or struggle. Come here legally, work hard, enjoy this awesome country and become Americans. Of course I'm not optimistic that any of this will truly happen. Democrats need voters.
    I don't agree with all the points on your list there, but I'd add decriminalizing marijuana to it, as a good way to help defund the cartels, and free up more money to do other things, be it border patrols, focusing on more harmful drugs, whatever. As to what I bolded, the Republicans are pretty unified in not doling out harsher punishments to the employers of illegals, so that will probably never happen. The 14th maybe should be looked at, if the problem gets bad again, and I don't think the "official language" notion really carries anything more than a symbolic weight.

    As to your joke at the end there--are you implying that the Republicans are the party for white people? I thought racism didn't really exist anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13
    I do wonder why democrats give Bill a free pass for using his position to sexually harass (abuse) women that worked for him through out his political career yet they want to call Trump a misogynist. Folks (both sides) need to stop being hypocrites and be truer to their own beliefs, but of course it remains politics as usual.
    I have no idea why the Democrats give Bubba a free pass for all that stuff you mentioned, as well as a bunch of other stuff you didn't. Nor do I understand why he's still so beloved. Must be because he comes off as warm and personal, I guess. I don't know. But unlike you, I don't even think he was a particularly good President. He did some good things, but so did Nixon. He also did a lot of bad things (policy wise, not skirt chasing wise).

    And yeah, hypocrisy is a very bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Hoffman View Post
    Frankly I don't things are gonna end well for Donnie at this point. Its clear he likely will never be able to accomplish anything major as long as the shadow of Russia hangs over him. Everytime he thinks he has managed to change the subject or move forward from the Russia probe some other piece of damaging info comes up that drags the whole thing right back into the spotlight. Those recent emails with Trump Jr make Hilary's emails look like small potatoes. Its kinda funny really how the Trumpers claim that the media won't stop obsessing over Russia when a lot of it is Donalds doing because he is basically feeding them.
    If he could keep his head up and just work on policy, and his agenda, he'd be much better off. Stop tweeting about witch hunts, stop spending so much time screaming at televisions showing news about the Russia investigations. But it's clear he can't bring himself to do that, nor does he seem much interested in actually governing.
    Last edited by the ancient gamer; 3 Days Ago at 11:48 AM.

  23. #273
    Senior Member golgo13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post


    I don't agree with all the points on your list there, but I'd add decriminalizing marijuana to it, as a good way to help defund the cartels, and free up more money to do other things, be it border patrols, focusing on more harmful drugs, whatever. As to what I bolded, the Republicans are pretty unified in not doling out harsher punishments to the employers of illegals, so that will probably never happen. The 14th maybe should be looked at, if the problem gets bad again, and I don't think the "official language" notion really carries anything more than a symbolic weight.

    As to your joke at the end there--are you implying that the Republicans are the party for white people? I thought racism didn't really exist anymore!

    I agree 1000% about legalizing marijuana. Strong proponent of legalization and the impact it would have.

    I never brought up race, my references are to freeloaders who want some of that good ole government subsidy in their lives that the democratic party seem so anxious to take from me to give to them. I could give a rat's ass about what race they are, freeloaders come in all colors.
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  24. #274
    Releaser of the Hounds WoodenSaucer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post
    I have no idea why the Democrats give Bubba a free pass for all that stuff you mentioned, as well as a bunch of other stuff you didn't. Nor do I understand why he's still so beloved. Must be because he comes off as warm and personal, I guess. I don't know. But unlike you, I don't even think he was a particularly good President. He did some good things, but so did Nixon. He also did a lot of bad things (policy wise, not skirt chasing wise).
    Lol. I've heard you talk just as bad about a lot of Democrat presidents and candidates as you do about the Republican ones. You just don't like any of them, do you?
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    Moderator the ancient gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    But we are no longer a melting pot. We are a thousand different subcultures who want to exist without any assimilation.
    That simply isn't true. The United States assimilates immigrants better than any country in the world. We may assimilate immigrants better than any country in the history of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    I never brought up race, my references are to freeloaders who want some of that good ole government subsidy in their lives that the democratic party seem so anxious to take from me to give to them.
    That's obviously one of the central tenets in your way of political thinking, perhaps the central tenet, so I'll tread lightly, and keep things brief. That notion is flawed, and not even particularly backed up by any real world evidence. You could mean various programs, or something, but that would seem to then point to an oversimplified, sort of blanket statement. I also find the notion that people immigrate here illegally in search of benefits they may not even get (because of their status) rather odd. I'd counter they come here for jobs, foremost, maybe a little safety away from all that cartel violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenSaucer View Post
    Lol. I've heard you talk just as bad about a lot of Democrat presidents and candidates as you do about the Republican ones. You just don't like any of them, do you?
    I'm notoriously hard to please when it comes to things like that.
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    Apparently the wall will have solar cells and be see through. I do think we need it, even if it sounds like something Wile Coyote or Lex Luthor would cook up. I have seen that the rate of illegals coming in has seen a sharp decrease because the rules are simply being enforced. I'm fine with anyone coming to America, even from Zamunda, but you need to do it the proper way.

    And as Golgo touched upon, why is it that immigrants don't seem to want to assimilate? I know that's not true for all immigrants, but you do seem to see a lot of it. Used to be, your family came from Italy or whatever, but you wanted to be American, and you worked hard to fit in. It's great to have pride in your ethnicity, heiritage and customs, but your first identity is as an American. That's why a lot of immigrants changed their names. Maybe making English the official language isn't such a bad idea, although people will scream it's racist or something. I'm also fine with making Spanish our second language. Canada does that with English and French, right?
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    Senior Member golgo13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post


    That's obviously one of the central tenets in your way of political thinking, perhaps the central tenet, so I'll tread lightly, and keep things brief. That notion is flawed, and not even particularly backed up by any real world evidence. You could mean various programs, or something, but that would seem to then point to an oversimplified, sort of blanket statement. I also find the notion that people immigrate here illegally in search of benefits they may not even get (because of their status) rather odd. I'd counter they come here for jobs, foremost, maybe a little safety away from all that cartel violence.
    Of course I'm being overly simplistic here on this message board. We could debate all kinds of entitlement programs, some are worthy, some aren't. Most need a drastic overhaul. My career is one that I get to see both the raw data and get to go out on site across the country to see the results of the spending. The feel good fluff and talking points are not even close to the reality.

    Of course I understand the need to let them eat cake, but how much cake and the quality of the icing is where my point of concern is.

    And on your last statement you seem to agree with my assertion that they have no desire to be Americans. If they just want to work then apply for a legal work visa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drew79 View Post
    Apparently the wall will have solar cells and be see through. I do think we need it, even if it sounds like something Wile Coyote or Lex Luthor would cook up. I have seen that the rate of illegals coming in has seen a sharp decrease because the rules are simply being enforced. I'm fine with anyone coming to America, even from Zamunda, but you need to do it the proper way.

    And as Golgo touched upon, why is it that immigrants don't seem to want to assimilate? I know that's not true for all immigrants, but you do seem to see a lot of it. Used to be, your family came from Italy or whatever, but you wanted to be American, and you worked hard to fit in. It's great to have pride in your ethnicity, heiritage and customs, but your first identity is as an American. That's why a lot of immigrants changed their names. Maybe making English the official language isn't such a bad idea, although people will scream it's racist or something. I'm also fine with making Spanish our second language. Canada does that with English and French, right?
    Have you tried assimilating into a culture very foreign to your own? It's much easier said than done, from my experience.

    Nearly all mexicans I've met out here are trying but aren't sure how. Not a ton of time to learn english and appreciate cheeseburgers when you're working 12 hour days and you've got 5 kids at home.

    I agree people should go through the proper process. But that's probably at the root of the problem - the process is a mess. A good friend of mine was brought over from Argentina when he was 5 and didn't know he was illegal until he was 18 and his mom told him. He started the process right then - 10 years later, he's still trying to get it done. The process is so convoluted it doesn't even let the good law-abiding people that want to be here, be here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliciousMalk View Post
    Have you tried assimilating into a culture very foreign to your own? It's much easier said than done, from my experience.

    Nearly all mexicans I've met out here are trying but aren't sure how. Not a ton of time to learn english and appreciate cheeseburgers when you're working 12 hour days and you've got 5 kids at home.

    I agree people should go through the proper process. But that's probably at the root of the problem - the process is a mess. A good friend of mine was brought over from Argentina when he was 5 and didn't know he was illegal until he was 18 and his mom told him. He started the process right then - 10 years later, he's still trying to get it done. The process is so convoluted it doesn't even let the good law-abiding people that want to be here, be here.
    It should be difficult. As long as the difficulties aren't a terrible burden on the tax payers then I'm all for it being hard and something earned. I would probably have things tiered a bit. Educated professionals that can immediately become a plus to society should be in the front of the line. Unskilled laborers at the back of the line. Refugees... fix your own country.
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  30. #280
    Releaser of the Hounds WoodenSaucer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliciousMalk View Post
    Have you tried assimilating into a culture very foreign to your own? It's much easier said than done, from my experience.

    Nearly all mexicans I've met out here are trying but aren't sure how. Not a ton of time to learn english and appreciate cheeseburgers when you're working 12 hour days and you've got 5 kids at home.

    I agree people should go through the proper process. But that's probably at the root of the problem - the process is a mess. A good friend of mine was brought over from Argentina when he was 5 and didn't know he was illegal until he was 18 and his mom told him. He started the process right then - 10 years later, he's still trying to get it done. The process is so convoluted it doesn't even let the good law-abiding people that want to be here, be here.
    I agree that the process to become legal is crazy. On one hand, you need to weed out the people who don't want to try, but on the other hand, it really needs to be easier for those who are doing everything they can.

    I'm close friends with a guy who was here illegally, until the last few months. He's been married to an American woman for quite a while, and they have two kids together, but having a family of citizens doesn't help anymore. He worked his backside off for a long time to save up enough money to pay thousands of dollars to get his green card, but even after he paid it, he still didn't qualify because you have to have a sponsor with enough money to guarantee that the person won't be a burden to our country. It's not easy to find someone capable or willing to do that. So even though he paid a bunch of money and jumped through all the hoops, there was still one hoop that seemed impossible for him. He tried for years to make up for coming illegally and do things the right way, but it's just too hard for people who want to work hard and try.

    And another thing, people talk about all of these illegals getting free healthcare and everything, but that's not what I saw. Maybe it's like that in other places, but my friend couldn't get any assistance at all. If he had a thousand dollar doctor bill, he just had to pay it.

    Finally, he got a sponsor, and he recently got his green card and SSN. It was wrong of him to come in illegally, but I'm proud of him for working so hard to do the right thing. I wish there were some way to make it easier for those who really want to do the right thing.
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    Senior Member drew79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliciousMalk View Post
    Have you tried assimilating into a culture very foreign to your own? It's much easier said than done, from my experience.

    Nearly all mexicans I've met out here are trying but aren't sure how. Not a ton of time to learn english and appreciate cheeseburgers when you're working 12 hour days and you've got 5 kids at home.

    I agree people should go through the proper process. But that's probably at the root of the problem - the process is a mess. A good friend of mine was brought over from Argentina when he was 5 and didn't know he was illegal until he was 18 and his mom told him. He started the process right then - 10 years later, he's still trying to get it done. The process is so convoluted it doesn't even let the good law-abiding people that want to be here, be here.

    That's a fair point, but if you aren't prepared to assimilate, then I guess you are just here for the benefits? I disagree with that, you should want to be part of the culture. That sounds more ignorant than intended, but working in the culinary/casino business for over a decade, I've met people from all over the world. Some try harder than others, that's just a fact. I've known people who speak poor English and apologize, and I feel empathy for them, because they want to learn. That's what we want more of, IMO.

    I don't know what cheeseburgers or kids have to do with anything, but I think if you put forth an effort to fit in, most people are happy to help. And I think the effort alone is appreciated. Except I do see a lot of people who don't want to make the effort. As I see it you either want to be part of our team, our family, or you don't.
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  32. #282
    Senior Member DeliciousMalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drew79 View Post
    I don't know what cheeseburgers or kids have to do with anything, but I think if you put forth an effort to fit in, most people are happy to help. And I think the effort alone is appreciated. Except I do see a lot of people who don't want to make the effort. As I see it you either want to be part of our team, our family, or you don't.
    It's referring to the fact that they're out in the fields all day with only other immigrants, and then after they come home they have 5 kids to raise/entertain. That doesn't leave a lot of room for "cultural assimilation", even when they really want it.

    In the culinary/casino industry I think there are a lot more opportunities to try, since you actually get to interact with people. And even then, some people are naturally introverted and it makes it significantly harder in general.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    Of course I'm being overly simplistic here on this message board. We could debate all kinds of entitlement programs, some are worthy, some aren't. Most need a drastic overhaul.
    So...for the sake or brevity, and some sort of clarity, you post a small minded, widely held belief that is so easy to disprove that it's ridiculous, instead of what you actually meant to say?

    Okay...

    But, even without knowing as much about these various programs as you do--and accepting we'd have differing opinions as to their various importance--I'm sure you're correct about many of them needing an overhaul. There's far too much waste in government.

    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13
    And on your last statement you seem to agree with my assertion that they have no desire to be Americans. If they just want to work then apply for a legal work visa.
    I'm not sure that a lot of Americans think all that much about their "desire" to be Americans, but that's sort of beside the point. I'm not defending illegal immigration, either, simply explaining why it happens. Sure, they want to work, they should apply or the proper visas and stuff. But--which one is it? Are they coming here to work, or are they coming here to be these Democratic "freeloaders"?

    Quote Originally Posted by drew79 View Post
    Apparently the wall will have solar cells and be see through. I do think we need it, even if it sounds like something Wile Coyote or Lex Luthor would cook up. I have seen that the rate of illegals coming in has seen a sharp decrease because the rules are simply being enforced. I'm fine with anyone coming to America, even from Zamunda, but you need to do it the proper way.

    And as Golgo touched upon, why is it that immigrants don't seem to want to assimilate?
    The Mexican economy has also improved, so there are more jobs down there, so that's another reason for the drop in illegals.

    And what do you mean about immigrants not wanting to assimilate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post
    So...for the sake or brevity, and some sort of clarity, you post a small minded, widely held belief that is so easy to disprove that it's ridiculous, instead of what you actually meant to say?

    Okay...

    But, even without knowing as much about these various programs as you do--and accepting we'd have differing opinions as to their various importance--I'm sure you're correct about many of them needing an overhaul. There's far too much waste in government.



    I'm not sure that a lot of Americans think all that much about their "desire" to be Americans, but that's sort of beside the point. I'm not defending illegal immigration, either, simply explaining why it happens. Sure, they want to work, they should apply or the proper visas and stuff. But--which one is it? Are they coming here to work, or are they coming here to be these Democratic "freeloaders"?



    The Mexican economy has also improved, so there are more jobs down there, so that's another reason for the drop in illegals.

    And what do you mean about immigrants not wanting to assimilate?
    It's in a very general sense. Again, probably a lot do want to integrate, but in my experience those are the folks who come in legally and pass the citizenship test. Those people are stellar, and generally know more about American history than the native born, which is pretty embarrassing. I'm sure you've seen those news segments where a guy gets a mike and asks random people something pretty simple questions like "Who fought in the American Civil War?" and half the people don't know. Sure, they probably ask some dopes just for good footage, but man, that's hard to watch.

    But something I have seen is that some communities are simply uninterested in being American. That's not to say you need to enroll in a civics class or anything like that, but show some interest. I've known immigrants who want to be full American, speak better English, want a better life for their kids, they want it all, and I think that's a laudable goal. And I've known others who quite simply don't give a damn. They want to continue being well, wherever they are from.

    I don't think forming insular communities is a good idea for any group. I realize back in the day we had the Italian part of town, the Asian part of of town, whatever, but is that a good idea these days? I feel that culture and heritage is important; however, you came the the US willingly. Act like you appreciate it a little, or go back home.
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    Damn...this shit is DEEP!!

    I say we institute a 5-year single term for ALL political offices and have a limit of 3 terms in different positions capable of being held by any one person. Meaning for instance if someone becomes a congressman they have one shot as a congressman, and lobbyists on all sides will loose the re-election leverage they have historically utilized to push policies that might stand in opposition to the will of the people and the Constitution. It also puts pressure on those elected into office to get to friggin' work and actually accomplish what they claim they will do, hopefully fostering more reasonable cooperation and constructive compromise that actually benefits our nation, while mitigating the corruption, as much as we can hope for at least.

    And by instituting the term limit in such a way it will keep public servants from being career politicians in the way they are today, and would likely help bring fresh blood into the political system at a much faster rate!

    Just my 2 cents.
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    Senior Member golgo13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post
    So...for the sake or brevity, and some sort of clarity, you post a small minded, widely held belief that is so easy to disprove that it's ridiculous, instead of what you actually meant to say?

    Okay...

    But, even without knowing as much about these various programs as you do--and accepting we'd have differing opinions as to their various importance--I'm sure you're correct about many of them needing an overhaul. There's far too much waste in government.
    Small minded? Sigh, so much for not being insulting. How did I know it would be you that would be unable to stay civil with other posters? It was enjoyable while it lasted.

  37. #287
    Senior Member golgo13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Praxis View Post
    Damn...this shit is DEEP!!

    I say we institute a 5-year single term for ALL political offices and have a limit of 3 terms in different positions capable of being held by any one person. Meaning for instance if someone becomes a congressman they have one shot as a congressman, and lobbyists on all sides will loose the re-election leverage they have historically utilized to push policies that might stand in opposition to the will of the people and the Constitution. It also puts pressure on those elected into office to get to friggin' work and actually accomplish what they claim they will do, hopefully fostering more reasonable cooperation and constructive compromise that actually benefits our nation, while mitigating the corruption, as much as we can hope for at least.

    And by instituting the term limit in such a way it will keep public servants from being career politicians in the way they are today, and would likely help bring fresh blood into the political system at a much faster rate!

    Just my 2 cents.
    Absolutely. Without going into the minutiae of your post, I agree with your post 100%. One of the biggest problems with government is career politicians. I'd be in favor of just about anything that limits their opportunities. Politics should be a civic endeavor not a professional one.
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    Moderator Darth Praxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    Absolutely. Without going into the minutiae of your post, I agree with your post 100%. One of the biggest problems with government is career politicians. I'd be in favor of just about anything that limits their opportunities. Politics should be a civic endeavor not a professional one.
    Precisely!

    And thank you!


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    Moderator the ancient gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    Small minded? Sigh, so much for not being insulting. How did I know it would be you that would be unable to stay civil with other posters? It was enjoyable while it lasted.
    That belief is small minded, and, as I said, is very easily called out as such. You replied you didn't actually subscribe to that belief, and from your explanation, I certainly believe you, so I don't see where any insults were being bandied about. I could throw out some similar oversimplifications that liberals direct at the right, but that wouldn't necessarily make them correct either. There are a few common notions, on both sides, that take complicated matters and reduce them into silly town territory.

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    Would you like to see the POTUS thread re-opened?

    can someone explain something to me. so for 8 years republicans stonewalled obama, and hated obamacare. now i'm not a fan of how fast it got pushed through or how it's been implemented. i have insurance and i'm afraid to go to the doctor for fear of a high bill.
    NOW, my main concern: if they HATED it for SO long and now that they have control of the presidency, house, and senate... how in the **** can't get something to replace it?
    what were they doing the last 8 ****ing years????? sleeping? this is sad. this really is pissing me off. now they are saying repeal it with no plan in the meantime. great job guys. seriously making us great again.
    sorry for the rant. i hate talkers, and that's all the republicans seem to be right now. not saying democrats aren't. but the conservatives are in charge. i'm just dumbfounded they can't work together. seriously SAD.
    edit: to be clear i just woke up and am watching philip defranco to catch up on news. i missed the last few posts, this isn't towards anyone specifically, more just me ranting on how the country can't seem to get its shit together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Praxis View Post
    Damn...this shit is DEEP!!

    I say we institute a 5-year single term for ALL political offices and have a limit of 3 terms in different positions capable of being held by any one person. Meaning for instance if someone becomes a congressman they have one shot as a congressman, and lobbyists on all sides will loose the re-election leverage they have historically utilized to push policies that might stand in opposition to the will of the people and the Constitution. It also puts pressure on those elected into office to get to friggin' work and actually accomplish what they claim they will do, hopefully fostering more reasonable cooperation and constructive compromise that actually benefits our nation, while mitigating the corruption, as much as we can hope for at least.

    And by instituting the term limit in such a way it will keep public servants from being career politicians in the way they are today, and would likely help bring fresh blood into the political system at a much faster rate!

    Just my 2 cents.
    YES! Darth is entirely on the money on this one!

    The counter argument though is that "we'll get politicians who don't know what to do!" GOOD. On the job training is fantastic sometimes. I don't want somebody who knows every cheat and exploit and gets seduced by the lifestyle. I want a cop or a dentist or a nurse who does their public service and then goes home. And it is a public service. You are here to serve the nation, it's people and her interests, not line your pockets. Also, it's an HONOR to serve, not the other way around. I feel we have lost sight of that.

    I'm going off memory here, but Maxine Waters, a career politician since the seventies has apparently helped passed THREE bills, in all that time and has been voted "most corrupt politician" on four separate occasions. Again, my memory isn't perfect, so please do your own research, but she is one of the most outspoken "obstructionists" out there. Why is this woman still in office? She's not producing any results. Why are we paying her? Why not get a new person who will work FOR California?

    This is why Americans support "draining the swamp." It's time to put Washington back to work and light a fire under these a-holes.

    In other, quieter news Kate's Law has passed the house but needs to pass the senate. Also, Trump has put a lot of effort into reforming healthcare for our veterans, to ensure our best and brightest get the medical care and rehabilitation they need.

    I haven't seen a lot of that on the news cycle, but it's there if you look for it.
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  42. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by drew79 View Post
    YES! Darth is entirely on the money on this one!

    The counter argument though is that "we'll get politicians who don't know what to do!" GOOD. On the job training is fantastic sometimes. I don't want somebody who knows every cheat and exploit and gets seduced by the lifestyle. I want a cop or a dentist or a nurse who does their public service and then goes home. And it is a public service. You are here to serve the nation, it's people and her interests, not line your pockets. Also, it's an HONOR to serve, not the other way around. I feel we have lost sight of that.

    I'm going off memory here, but Maxine Waters, a career politician since the seventies has apparently helped passed THREE bills, in all that time and has been voted "most corrupt politician" on four separate occasions. Again, my memory isn't perfect, so please do your own research, but she is one of the most outspoken "obstructionists" out there. Why is this woman still in office? She's not producing any results. Why are we paying her? Why not get a new person who will work FOR California?

    This is why Americans support "draining the swamp." It's time to put Washington back to work and light a fire under these a-holes.

    In other, quieter news Kate's Law has passed the house but needs to pass the senate. Also, Trump has put a lot of effort into reforming healthcare for our veterans, to ensure our best and brightest get the medical care and rehabilitation they need.

    I haven't seen a lot of that on the news cycle, but it's there if you look for it.
    You completely nailed the core sentiments of my post and expounded upon them very clearly. I think that having a much higher attrition rate with regards to public servants would help eliminate a large degree of the entrenched corruption that is clearly evident currently on both sides of the isle, whether it be Maxine Waters, Mitch McConnell, Nancy Pelosi, John McCain and so forth.

    To address Heimbachae's query, the reason that the healthcare debacle is running into stalemate with the Republicans right now is that many of these Republicans who have been elected since 2010 are what we call RINO Republicans (Republican In Name Only) who ran on platforms that "promised" once they were elected that they would completely repeal the TAX that is Obamacare. But now that they are in office their true colors are showing and the efforts to actually repeal Obamacare have been thwarted in many ways by speaker Paul Ryan and his cadre of RINO's to instead enact a barely altered variation of Obamacare rather than actually repeal this failed burden on the American people.

    The conservative caucus has been fighting to actually try and keep their promise of a total repeal, which the RINO's then attack the conservatives because they never intended to keep their end of the bargain.


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    Moderator the ancient gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drew79 View Post
    But something I have seen is that some communities are simply uninterested in being American. That's not to say you need to enroll in a civics class or anything like that, but show some interest. I've known immigrants who want to be full American, speak better English, want a better life for their kids, they want it all, and I think that's a laudable goal. And I've known others who quite simply don't give a damn. They want to continue being well, wherever they are from.

    I don't think forming insular communities is a good idea for any group. I realize back in the day we had the Italian part of town, the Asian part of of town, whatever, but is that a good idea these days? I feel that culture and heritage is important; however, you came the the US willingly. Act like you appreciate it a little, or go back home.
    I'm still unsure at to what you're getting at. Are the communities you're referring to of a certain type, ethnicity-wise, or are they just various groups, here and there? And is what you're referencing simply the points you bring up--learning better English, taking better care of their kids?

    And how do the various people you mention at the end there act like they don't "appreciate" being here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Praxis View Post
    I say we institute a 5-year single term for ALL political offices and have a limit of 3 terms in different positions capable of being held by any one person. Meaning for instance if someone becomes a congressman they have one shot as a congressman, and lobbyists on all sides will loose the re-election leverage they have historically utilized to push policies that might stand in opposition to the will of the people and the Constitution. It also puts pressure on those elected into office to get to friggin' work and actually accomplish what they claim they will do, hopefully fostering more reasonable cooperation and constructive compromise that actually benefits our nation, while mitigating the corruption, as much as we can hope for at least.

    And by instituting the term limit in such a way it will keep public servants from being career politicians in the way they are today, and would likely help bring fresh blood into the political system at a much faster rate!

    Just my 2 cents.
    There is some value to what you put forth there, but I'm afraid that only being able to serve once in a particular branch of government would really serve as any sort of motivation for people to work harder to actually accomplish goals. With no re-election ahead of them, why would that put more pressure on them to produce, and not less? You do make a good point about the lobbyists, and their influence, those sort of term limits would be somewhat restrictive on all of that, but I fear it could lead to even more corruption than we already have. The lobbyists, and the dark money, need to be dealt with, regardless if we change how things work, and install term limits, or what. I also feel that drew79's assertion that continually having rookie classes coming into Congress is off base. I really don't see that as being as beneficial as he does. Something would drift down to provide continuity in government, and if that isn't Congressmen, who would that be?

    One thing I feel we definitely have to change is that the House needs to get off of these two year terms, whether term limits get invoked, or not. The two year cycle essentially means these people are continually campaigning, and raising money, and that's a fertile ground for lobbyist nonsense.

    I do have to admit that the term limit notion is perhaps something to consider, as there is a built in advantage for incumbents to be re-elected, whether they deserve it, or not. I don't know...it's a good conversation to have, no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by heimbachae View Post
    NOW, my main concern: if they HATED it for SO long and now that they have control of the presidency, house, and senate... how in the **** can't get something to replace it?
    what were they doing the last 8 ****ing years????? sleeping? this is sad. this really is pissing me off. now they are saying repeal it with no plan in the meantime. great job guys. seriously making us great again.
    It's actually pretty easy to understand, when you take a couple of steps back from it. The tribalism, at first, cast a partisan shadow over all of that, and hey, Obama's name was actually used when referencing the ACA--"Obamacare"-- (and Red Tribe says Obama=bad, no matter what). But...as this issue of health care has advanced, we've reached a tipping point on it, and the public now has a different position on, and understanding of, all this stuff than they did a few years ago. So, it's become a far more complicated issue than before. If the Republicans pass anything close to what they're pushing right now, it'll be political suicide.
    Last edited by the ancient gamer; 1 Day Ago at 09:01 PM.

  44. #294
    Moderator the ancient gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Praxis View Post
    The conservative caucus has been fighting to actually try and keep their promise of a total repeal, which the RINO's then attack the conservatives because they never intended to keep their end of the bargain.
    The electorate doesn't want a total repeal, nor do they want cuts to Medicaid.

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    Vetus-schola venatus Mr_Nick666's Avatar
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    Living in the UK I don't get how you view public healthcare as a TAX. The NHS, although not perfect, just makes sense. I mean, the NHS has been judged the best, safest and most affordable healthcare system out of 11 countries analysed and ranked by experts from the influential Commonwealth Fund health thinktank in 2017! In contrast to the US, over the last decade the UK saw a larger decline in mortality amenable to healthcare than the other countries studied. Obamacare seemed like a good thing. I believe you should be a registered citizen to receive the free care - that's my only caveat.
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    Senior Member drew79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post
    I'm still unsure at to what you're getting at. Are the communities you're referring to of a certain type, ethnicity-wise, or are they just various groups, here and there? And is what you're referencing simply the points you bring up--learning better English, taking better care of their kids?

    And how do the various people you mention at the end there act like they don't "appreciate" being here?



    There is some value to what you put forth there, but I'm afraid that only being able to serve once in a particular branch of government would really serve as any sort of motivation for people to work harder to actually accomplish goals. With no re-election ahead of them, why would that put more pressure on them to produce, and not less? You do make a good point about the lobbyists, and their influence, those sort of term limits would be somewhat restrictive on all of that, but I fear it could lead to even more corruption than we already have. The lobbyists, and the dark money, need to be dealt with, regardless if we change how things work, and install term limits, or what. I also feel that drew79's assertion that continually having rookie classes coming into Congress is off base. I really don't see that as being as beneficial as he does. Something would drift down to provide continuity in government, and if that isn't Congressmen, who would that be?

    One thing I feel we definitely have to change is that the House needs to get off of these two year terms, whether term limits get invoked, or not. The two year cycle essentially means these people are continually campaigning, and raising money, and that's a fertile ground for lobbyist nonsense.

    I do have to admit that the term limit notion is perhaps something to consider, as there is a built in advantage for incumbents to be re-elected, whether they deserve it, or not. I don't know...it's a good conversation to have, no matter what.



    It's actually pretty easy to understand, when you take a couple of steps back from it. The tribalism, at first, cast a partisan shadow over all of that, and hey, Obama's name was actually used when referencing the ACA--"Obamacare"-- (and Red Tribe says Obama=bad, no matter what). But...as this issue of health care has advanced, we've reached a tipping point on it, and the public now has a different position on, and understanding of, all this stuff than they did a few years ago. So, it's become a far more complicated issue than before. If the Republicans pass anything close to what they're pushing right now, it'll be political suicide.

    I'm not sure if I can explain it any better. I guess it would be like you start a small company and you hire two people. One guy is invested in the company doing well, that's self interest and that's fine, we all do that. So if you need him to stay late or come in on Saturday for a few hours and he's fine with that. Plus he's upbeat and his attitude towards customers is great. We are working towards a common goal, of making our company successful. He's happy to be there, because our fortunes are intertwined.

    The other guy just does the bare minimum. That's it.

    Obviously you would want the first guy over the second, correct? I've seen this across all races and nationalities. Some are positive people and some are not. I would say that people from Argentina, Ecuador, and Jamaica seem to really appreciate being here in America and the potential of what they can achieve and what we can accomplish together.

    Hope that clarifies things a bit.
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    Lunkhead.

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    Releaser of the Hounds WoodenSaucer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient gamer View Post
    I'm still unsure at to what you're getting at. Are the communities you're referring to of a certain type, ethnicity-wise, or are they just various groups, here and there? And is what you're referencing simply the points you bring up--learning better English, taking better care of their kids?

    And how do the various people you mention at the end there act like they don't "appreciate" being here?
    The thing about this whole discussion (immigrants assimilating) is that most people assume you're just talking about Spanish speaking people from Mexico, but there is a lot more to immigration than just that. My brother-in-law works in a factory that got some kind of tax break for hiring a bunch of Burmese refugees. There are people in every immigrant group who don't care to learn the language and try to fit in; they expect everyone to adapt to them. Definitely not everyone, but there are people like that out there. Some of these people are just here for the work, or to get away from a bad situation, and they don't have any desire to be American. I've known Mexicans who hang Mexican flags in their yard with no American flag, and it makes you wonder why they're here if they are passionate enough about their loyalty to Mexico to make what they darned well knew was going to be a major statement, especially since they were in a redneck town.

    But the biggest concern comes from the Muslim extremists who claim they're going to enforce their own Sharia law in the US. Is every Muslim like that? Of course not. My wife works with several Muslims who are great people. And it's silly to think that all immigrants, or even the majority, have this anti-American mentality. Most of them are trying, but it's not an easy thing to adapt to a new culture, especially when you're already an adult. But it's also ignorance to claim there aren't any immigrants out there who have that kind of mentality, because there are plenty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenSaucer View Post
    The thing about this whole discussion (immigrants assimilating) is that most people assume you're just talking about Spanish speaking people from Mexico, but there is a lot more to immigration than just that. My brother-in-law works in a factory that got some kind of tax break for hiring a bunch of Burmese refugees. There are people in every immigrant group who don't care to learn the language and try to fit in; they expect everyone to adapt to them. Definitely not everyone, but there are people like that out there. Some of these people are just here for the work, or to get away from a bad situation, and they don't have any desire to be American. I've known Mexicans who hang Mexican flags in their yard with no American flag, and it makes you wonder why they're here if they are passionate enough about their loyalty to Mexico to make what they darned well knew was going to be a major statement, especially since they were in a redneck town.

    But the biggest concern comes from the Muslim extremists who claim they're going to enforce their own Sharia law in the US. Is every Muslim like that? Of course not. My wife works with several Muslims who are great people. And it's silly to think that all immigrants, or even the majority, have this anti-American mentality. Most of them are trying, but it's not an easy thing to adapt to a new culture, especially when you're already an adult. But it's also ignorance to claim there aren't any immigrants out there who have that kind of mentality, because there are plenty.
    If I lived in the States I wouldn't hang an American flag.
    And it would have nothing to do with me not wanting to be an American. I wouldn't want to be an American, I'd want to be an Australian, because I'm Australian.
    That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to live in America, get to know people, learn the culture and enjoy living there.

    Some people might come to give their kids a better life. That doesn't mean they want to identify as American beyond being a citizen. To some people where you live isn't as important who you are.




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    Senior Member The Cloud Strife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpd01 View Post
    If I lived in the States I wouldn't hang an American flag.
    And it would have nothing to do with me not wanting to be an American. I wouldn't want to be an American, I'd want to be an Australian, because I'm Australian.
    That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to live in America, get to know people, learn the culture and enjoy living there.

    Some people might come to give their kids a better life. That doesn't mean they want to identify as American beyond being a citizen. To some people where you live isn't as important who you are.




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    Ah man, this thread has sucked me in again haha. I think what Woody is really talking about are the people who come here to flee whatever issues they are having in their own countries, but then disrespect ours. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having patriotism for your country, but I do understand why some people take offense when they see other flags flying without any American ones. I think if you're going to wave a flag, you should have one of both - where you're from and where you are. But that's just me. You could always argue with things like "well, if I move to New York it doesn't mean I have to wear a Yankees jersey" and while that is true, I still feel there are quite a few differences.

    With all that being said, I am not very patriotic. I don't have anything against where I live, and I root for the US in soccer/football (lol), but I also feel too many Americans sort of feel like they're in this bubble and this is the only country that exists which is just not true. I've visited other countries, and I realize there are pros and cons to most all of them. If I were going to fly a flag, I guess it would be an Earth flag haha.

    One more thing I will say real quick in regards to health care. I don't mind free health care if done right. Aren't taxpayers already footing the bill for people who can't afford a doctor and go to the ER with no intention of paying anyways? Obamacare, though, while it did have some positives also had plenty of flaws. For one, you still had to pay to have health insurance and for two they would fine you for not paying. I wasn't really on board with that, but I do agree that our health care needs an overhaul.
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  50. #300
    Releaser of the Hounds WoodenSaucer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpd01 View Post
    If I lived in the States I wouldn't hang an American flag.
    And it would have nothing to do with me not wanting to be an American. I wouldn't want to be an American, I'd want to be an Australian, because I'm Australian.
    That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to live in America, get to know people, learn the culture and enjoy living there.

    Some people might come to give their kids a better life. That doesn't mean they want to identify as American beyond being a citizen. To some people where you live isn't as important who you are.
    You're completely missing my point. I'm not saying everyone needs to hang an American flag and be patriotic. I'm talking about people who intentionally hang a Mexican flag to shove it in our faces and declare they're Mexican and we'd better accept it. It's the attitude.

    I don't have any problem with people living here on a work visa and still identifying with where they are from. I've worked a lot of years in a Japanese factory where a lot of the executives and engineers were Japanese. Their citizenship was in Japan, and they held to their culture. They will never be Americans, and there are no expectations of that sort. I have no problem with that. I still believe they need to try to learn our language the best they can if they're going to spend a couple of years here just because it's practical and courteous.

    And I don't even have a problem with people from other countries gaining citizenship, yet holding onto their identity and culture of where they are from. I don't want everyone to meld into one clone. That would be boring. But if you're going to go to the extent of gaining your citizenship, you should at least respect the fact that you are a citizen of a new country, even if you do hold onto your identity and culture. My Mexican friend that I talked about in another post is a great example. He's not overly patriotic. He holds onto his identity. Yet he appreciates and respects the fact that he's living in the US now, and he has worked hard to learn the language and fit into our culture without losing his own.

    So I was never talking about people becoming ultra-patriotic. I was talking about some people who come to America and cop and anti-American attitude. If you're against America, there are probably better places you could be so you won't be so miserable.
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